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	Comments on: The Two-fold Destruction of the Harlot and the Great Falling Away	</title>
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	<link>https://mysteryofisrael.org/the-two-fold-destruction-of-the-harlot-and-the-great-falling-away/</link>
	<description>Reflections on the Mystery of Israel and the Church – – – by Reggie Kelly</description>
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		<title>
		By: Reggie Kelly		</title>
		<link>https://mysteryofisrael.org/the-two-fold-destruction-of-the-harlot-and-the-great-falling-away/#comment-131</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Reggie Kelly]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jul 2013 03:37:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/?p=4205#comment-131</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://mysteryofisrael.org/the-two-fold-destruction-of-the-harlot-and-the-great-falling-away/#comment-130&quot;&gt;davidrickman&lt;/a&gt;.

Thanks, brother, for your interest and feedback.

I completely appreciate your suggestion concerning Dan 8:13. When all things related are understood in true perspective, I believe you are quite correct to see the &#039;transgression of desolation&#039; as an ultimate act of rebellion and insult against the &#039;holy covenant&#039; at Jerusalem (Dan 11:28-32; 12:11). Regardless of Jewish unbelief, THIS ACT of ultimate hubris stands for much more in the sight of God than the modern church (so removed from the original context of OT eschatology) tends to imagine. Just moments ago, I wrote a friend how the assault by the AC on the restored institutions at Jerusalem is looked upon by God as an ultimate provocation and insult that crosses an unprecedented line whereby His fury comes up on His face (Eze 38:18 with Joel 3:2). I&#039;ll forward that to you now. 

On 1Tim 4:1-3, I am not inclined to understand this in direct connection to the world rebellion of 2Thes 2:3, though not unrelated in time. One can certainly sympathize with how compellingly 1Tim 4:1-3 would seem to support the &#039;historicist&#039; view of prophecy, since it sounds so much like the apostasy that was historically embodied in the church of Rome. However, I am inclined to see in 1Tim 4:1-3 another aspect of the unequaled deception that will terrifically threaten the faith of God&#039;s elect towards the very end, during the tribulation, specifically after the abomination of Mt 24:15 (Dan 11:31; 12:11) has already been placed, as described in Mt 24:24. 

This I believe to be something more threatening to the true body of Christ than the more obvious deception of the Antichrist. I believe the Spirit has warned me that the deception that will sift the church, even AFTER the rise of the Antichrist, will be the deception in its own midst through charismatic leaders that will seduce many to a Christian form of Judaism, a form of the Galatian heresy that mixes the purity and simplicity of the gospel with a false sanctification through the law. I can only infer that after the church has been humbled and corrected in much of its presumption concerning the divine purpose concerning Israel, the next great danger will be the way that some will begin to use the law to bring the consciences of believers back under a false principle of sanctification, perhaps even justification. The result will not be the promotion of true holiness of the Spirit by faith, but a false holiness of the flesh that inclines to bondage. So while concurrent with the world rebellion and the great temptation to bow to the demands of the &#039;king of fierce countenance,&#039; I believe this last deception will be the far more subtle test that will more perilously threaten God&#039;s elect than even the rise of the Antichrist.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://mysteryofisrael.org/the-two-fold-destruction-of-the-harlot-and-the-great-falling-away/#comment-130">davidrickman</a>.</p>
<p>Thanks, brother, for your interest and feedback.</p>
<p>I completely appreciate your suggestion concerning Dan 8:13. When all things related are understood in true perspective, I believe you are quite correct to see the &#8216;transgression of desolation&#8217; as an ultimate act of rebellion and insult against the &#8216;holy covenant&#8217; at Jerusalem (Dan 11:28-32; 12:11). Regardless of Jewish unbelief, THIS ACT of ultimate hubris stands for much more in the sight of God than the modern church (so removed from the original context of OT eschatology) tends to imagine. Just moments ago, I wrote a friend how the assault by the AC on the restored institutions at Jerusalem is looked upon by God as an ultimate provocation and insult that crosses an unprecedented line whereby His fury comes up on His face (Eze 38:18 with Joel 3:2). I&#8217;ll forward that to you now. </p>
<p>On 1Tim 4:1-3, I am not inclined to understand this in direct connection to the world rebellion of 2Thes 2:3, though not unrelated in time. One can certainly sympathize with how compellingly 1Tim 4:1-3 would seem to support the &#8216;historicist&#8217; view of prophecy, since it sounds so much like the apostasy that was historically embodied in the church of Rome. However, I am inclined to see in 1Tim 4:1-3 another aspect of the unequaled deception that will terrifically threaten the faith of God&#8217;s elect towards the very end, during the tribulation, specifically after the abomination of Mt 24:15 (Dan 11:31; 12:11) has already been placed, as described in Mt 24:24. </p>
<p>This I believe to be something more threatening to the true body of Christ than the more obvious deception of the Antichrist. I believe the Spirit has warned me that the deception that will sift the church, even AFTER the rise of the Antichrist, will be the deception in its own midst through charismatic leaders that will seduce many to a Christian form of Judaism, a form of the Galatian heresy that mixes the purity and simplicity of the gospel with a false sanctification through the law. I can only infer that after the church has been humbled and corrected in much of its presumption concerning the divine purpose concerning Israel, the next great danger will be the way that some will begin to use the law to bring the consciences of believers back under a false principle of sanctification, perhaps even justification. The result will not be the promotion of true holiness of the Spirit by faith, but a false holiness of the flesh that inclines to bondage. So while concurrent with the world rebellion and the great temptation to bow to the demands of the &#8216;king of fierce countenance,&#8217; I believe this last deception will be the far more subtle test that will more perilously threaten God&#8217;s elect than even the rise of the Antichrist.</p>
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		<title>
		By: davidrickman		</title>
		<link>https://mysteryofisrael.org/the-two-fold-destruction-of-the-harlot-and-the-great-falling-away/#comment-130</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[davidrickman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jul 2013 11:33:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/?p=4205#comment-130</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Reggie, I soberly agree with your statements regarding the church&#039;s interpretation of prophetic scripture so self-centeredly and we have a lack of OT context to provide a framework for understanding NT statements concerning the outworking of God&#039;s plan. Alongside Daniel 11:28-32, would you say Paul is deriving his understanding of &#039;the falling away / rebellion&quot; from Daniel 8:13 as well? : 

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, THE REBELLION that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

In light of Paul&#039;s frame of reference, do you think 1 Tim. 4:1-3 has any connection to this? Its often used as support for a doctrine of a great falling away (in the church). Could you share some of your thoughts on this passage in light of seeing the OT background of the great falling away? Thanks so much.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reggie, I soberly agree with your statements regarding the church&#8217;s interpretation of prophetic scripture so self-centeredly and we have a lack of OT context to provide a framework for understanding NT statements concerning the outworking of God&#8217;s plan. Alongside Daniel 11:28-32, would you say Paul is deriving his understanding of &#8216;the falling away / rebellion&#8221; from Daniel 8:13 as well? : </p>
<p>13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, THE REBELLION that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”</p>
<p>In light of Paul&#8217;s frame of reference, do you think 1 Tim. 4:1-3 has any connection to this? Its often used as support for a doctrine of a great falling away (in the church). Could you share some of your thoughts on this passage in light of seeing the OT background of the great falling away? Thanks so much.</p>
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		<title>
		By: itinerantmom		</title>
		<link>https://mysteryofisrael.org/the-two-fold-destruction-of-the-harlot-and-the-great-falling-away/#comment-129</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[itinerantmom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:16:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/?p=4205#comment-129</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In chapter one of Revelation, John says that he &quot;bare record...of all things that he saw.&quot; I can match every interpretation John is given with something John records having seen: except the waters where the whore sits. In 17:1 the angel tells John that the whore sits upon many waters. Then in verse 15, the angel tells John that John saw these waters. However, between verses 1 and 15, John NEVER says that he saw waters. Why is this the only interpreted sign that John never records having seen?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In chapter one of Revelation, John says that he &#8220;bare record&#8230;of all things that he saw.&#8221; I can match every interpretation John is given with something John records having seen: except the waters where the whore sits. In 17:1 the angel tells John that the whore sits upon many waters. Then in verse 15, the angel tells John that John saw these waters. However, between verses 1 and 15, John NEVER says that he saw waters. Why is this the only interpreted sign that John never records having seen?</p>
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